What Was Before The Big Bang

The non amateur stuff. Hawking, black holes, that sort of thing

Moderators: joe, Brian, Guy Fennimore

Post Reply
mark_smith
Posts: 1030
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:52 pm
Location: Grimsby, Lincolnshire
Contact:

What Was Before The Big Bang

Post by mark_smith »

The big bang was supposed to created everything does anyone know of any theories about what was before the big bang. I ask this question because every time I look up I can’t help but wonder about what’s out there and does space have a start and finish. Any replies will be really useful I can’t sleep at night because of that question lol

Mark
joe
Site Admin
Posts: 4382
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:24 am
Location: Greenwich, London
Contact:

Post by joe »

Mark,

Am I right in assuming that you are asking what was before the beginning of all that there is? There are theories that describe events before our particular big bang that involve String Theory, Branes, Chaotic Inflation, etc. etc. But these will not explain a "Beginning". If it is that question you are asking then I'm afraid you can't. When you ask what was before you are implying that there was always a state of affairs pre-universe where time was relevant. This is not true as time and space were created at the moment of the birth of the universe. Therefore there was no before.The words that you use that refer to the passing of time, and there are lots of them, could only have been cooked up in a brain that is functioning in an environment where time is a player. It is a question that cannot be asked because it does not make sense when referring to a state where there is no time. The same goes for "outside" the universe. There isn't anything outside because the universe is all the space there is.

Regards, :oops:
200mm Newtonian, OMC140, ETX90, 15x70 Binoculars.
Vick
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:24 pm
Contact:

Post by Vick »

Joes reply is pretty much how I visualised the Big Bng situation. There are now theories that make us a part of a "Multi-verse" - a sort of throff (or foam) of universes and our universe erupted out of another universe.

Could the formation of a black hole also give rise to a new universe.

Once I start considering possibilities other than the basic one I find things get a bit confusing.
Iron Sun 254
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:04 pm
Contact:

Post by Iron Sun 254 »

joe wrote: It is a question that cannot be asked because it does not make sense when referring to a state where there is no time. The same goes for "outside" the universe. There isn't anything outside because the universe is all the space there is.
Yes...it's like asking where the East Pole is... It's meaningless.
There's a thin line between Genius and Insanity. That's where I live, baby!
Jeff
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 3:23 pm
Location: Essex
Contact:

Post by Jeff »

Hello all,

I am also an inquisitive newbie to Astronomy but have to agree with Mark that this question just begs to be asked...

It has been widely suggested that time and matter did not exist before the forming of our Universe... To me, this theory is very much a stark contradiction in itself... For to suggest that the Universe was formed must have meant that it was 'formed' from something, i.e. some form of previously existing physical matter...? For this reason I am a great believer that space and time have always existed and that the big bang was merely a relatively recent occurrence within the evolution of a far greater series of events.

To further expand upon this point I feel that our theories on the Big Bang simply point to the obvious in that we are of course only able to trace back to the forming of our Universe. To make a comparison this is much the same as the fact that we can only plot back to a certain time in history when we humans were first thought to walk the Earth.

To suggest that absolutely nothing existed before the events of 12 billion years ago is quite ludicrous for the simple reason that everything derives from something. Take us humans for example, we derived from the molecules of Earth, without the Earth we could not have come to be. Surely the same applied in the formation of our Universe in that there must have been some previously existing elements that enabled its creation...???

With this in mind I am confident that molecules and atoms must have existed prior to the big bang for without them there is no other reasonable explanation as to how this event could have otherwise been caused. For these vital triggering elements to have existed previous to the big bang they must have been within some form of environment and time frame, thus leading me to conclude that there must have been space and time before our Universe was formed...

That's my theory, I hope I've made some sort of sense... :wink:

(Straps oneself in, waiting to be shot down in flames :lol: )
I guess this might take a while...
mark_smith
Posts: 1030
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:52 pm
Location: Grimsby, Lincolnshire
Contact:

Post by mark_smith »

This question just confuses me all the things that mankind has achieved this must be one of the hardest questions that we don’t know or not fully anyway. Does anyone know of any good simple books about the subject nothing to in depth?
davep
Posts: 2814
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 11:07 am
Location: South Lincolnshire
Contact:

Post by davep »

Jeff wrote:With this in mind I am confident that molecules and atoms must have existed prior to the big bang for without them there is no other reasonable explanation as to how this event could have otherwise been caused. For these vital triggering elements to have existed previous to the big bang they must have been within some form of environment and time frame, thus leading me to conclude that there must have been space and time before our Universe was formed...
You find the idea of "something" coming from "nothing" hard to accept but you don't have a problem with the idea of "something" having existed "forever"? Don't both lines of thought make your head hurt? They do mine.
Jeff wrote:That's my theory, I hope I've made some sort of sense... :wink:
Probably safer to call it a hypothesis.
joe
Site Admin
Posts: 4382
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:24 am
Location: Greenwich, London
Contact:

Post by joe »

If you collect all the electrical charge in the universe, the positive and negative charge (protons, electrons for example) then the opposite charges cancel each other out. Therefore all the electromagnetic energy in the universe amounts to zero. All the other types of energy or forces when added up come to precisely zero also, one positive force cancelling out a negative one. There you have something from nothing. Matter or molecules are effectively "frozen" energy therefore molecules came from nothing.

You are probably safe to say that there is no guarantee that the Big Bang was the beginning of everything but evidence shows that it was the beginning of everything in our universe.

Humans have evolved in this universe and can only with difficulty talk about a state of affairs that does not include the laws that govern our evolution and thought processes. Perhaps a bit like describing the colour red without referring to colour. You cannot talk about time without mentioning space (change). Saying that there had to be something before the Big Bang just pushes things back along the line. What was before that?

There, my hypothesis :P
200mm Newtonian, OMC140, ETX90, 15x70 Binoculars.
Jeff
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 3:23 pm
Location: Essex
Contact:

Post by Jeff »

Hi guys thanks for your comments on my thoughts...

Mark, you make a very good point there in that there are so many fine lines to be walked when discussing the issue of something having always existed... Yep the head very much hurts and I haven't even taken a sip of my coffee yet so I'm not going to go there... :lol:

Joe, That was the point that I was trying to get across. I agree with the theory that the big bang was the event that caused the creation of our Universe but I feel very strongly that there must have been some form of elements to have caused it, thus suggesting that there was some form of life before our Universe came to exist...

I suppose in a nut shell that I lean more towards the multi-verse theory in that our Universe was the by-product of another... I feel that there must have been open space for the Universe to have exploded and spread in to for example?

Having watched a programme about the Hubble Telescope the other night they showed images of just how far we can see across the Universe. Yes, this is as far as the scope can see, but this sure cannot be conclusive in that there is therefore nothing beyond that distant point of vision...?

I am a believer in the bigger picture and, as I said in my first mail, I feel that the creation of our Universe is a relitively recent event in a far greater series of events in history...
I guess this might take a while...
Gregger
Posts: 424
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:04 am
Location: Derby/Burton upon Trent
Contact:

Post by Gregger »

Blimey!

I'm going to have a lie down after reading all that!

What incredible concepts!
Jeff
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 3:23 pm
Location: Essex
Contact:

Post by Jeff »

I think some of us have got too much time on our hands... :lol:
I guess this might take a while...
Asteeleleith
Posts: 171
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 2:19 am
Location: Northampton
Contact:

Before Big bang

Post by Asteeleleith »

Hi all

one of my favorite theories of all is the theory of the "Oscillating Universe" That is to say the uiverse expands so far then contracts again.

One it reaches the "Centre" the core begins to reheat until the conditions for Big Bang are met. you know the Big Bang- big crunch idea

Just a few thoughs

Alastair
Engineer, businessman, and Astronomer
Post Reply