shape of our universe theory and questions..

The non amateur stuff. Hawking, black holes, that sort of thing

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muddak
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shape of our universe theory and questions..

Post by muddak »

Hi, I am new to this forum and I need to ask a question to get an opinion.

Concerning the shape of space-time “fabricâ€
Leslie Ewan
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Post by Leslie Ewan »

Hi Muddak Welcome.
:? Sorry Muddak you question is totally beyond me.I think I'll go back to general chat where I belong. :lol:
davep
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Re: shape of our universe theory and questions..

Post by davep »

muddak wrote:and we have all seen images of great jets of light (or energy) being ejected from those black-holes.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it the case that the jets emanate from the accretion disk rather than from the black hole itself?
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Post by joe »

Hi Muddak,

I'm not quite sure of the main question or thrust of your post but I'm sure we can discuss some of the topics, even if my knowledge is slight.
we have all heard that black holes or worm holes could possibly be gateways to other dimensions or passage ways to other places in the universe,
It might be a possibility(?) but it is very speculative and of course all communication would be lost on entering a black hole therefore we would never be able to confirm such a thing to an outsider.
What if black holes are simply tears in the fabric of space-time, created by a huge mass
I'm not sure what this means ...but I'm sure it's not "simple" :D . I've read about "tears in the fabric of spacetime" before but mainly with String Theory. Can you explain more clearly what you mean by "tear"?
Would it be possible for anti-matter to become denser on the “other sideâ€
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muddak
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Post by muddak »

joe wrote:Hi Muddak,

I'm not quite sure of the main question or thrust of your post but I'm sure we can discuss some of the topics, even if my knowledge is slight.
we have all heard that black holes or worm holes could possibly be gateways to other dimensions or passage ways to other places in the universe,
It might be a possibility(?) but it is very speculative and of course all communication would be lost on entering a black hole therefore we would never be able to confirm such a thing to an outsider.
I'm not saying that it is possible for us to cross on the other side of the black hole for we would be disassembled just like everything that goes through it...
What if black holes are simply tears in the fabric of space-time, created by a huge mass
I'm not sure what this means ...but I'm sure it's not "simple" :D . I've read about "tears in the fabric of spacetime" before but mainly with String Theory. Can you explain more clearly what you mean by "tear"?
well... maybe it does have something to do with string theory... this mass that created the black hole, was crushed in on itself so the mass itself would not be present anymore but the curve in spacetime would still be there... if we take a huge blanket for example, and put a very heavy weight in the center of it and lots of smaller weights around it, the big weight would tear through the blanket, and all the smaller weights would follow because that curve in the blanket is still there... but since it is less dense on the other side of the blanket, matter would not hold together so therefore, it would be disassembled and maybe result in some sort of visible radiation (just like a nuclear reaction or something) witch would be those jets I'm talking about. if the fabric is invisble, then we would see on the other side, just like all the galaxies that we see in space... if matter is disassembled and thrown to the other side, it maybe could reassemble and form new galaxies or new stars... maybe that has to do with string theory, I'm not sure...
Would it be possible for anti-matter to become denser on the “other sideâ€
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Post by Cliff »

Dear Muddak
If I were inclined to being nasty and very unkind I would probably say yes I agree with you that you are "Wakko" or whatever.
However, my own opinion is that as amateur astronomers\cosmologists we all have a right to think, hypothesise or theorise, however we like on these matters.
I think that I am probably quite conservative (with a small "c") in my own ideas about cosmology I tend to follow the main stream trends of thought.
With regards to the shape of space, its something I avoid thinking about.
There are many aspects of cosmology that are way beyond my comprehension, Although I am one might say I am a little curious about many things that I do not understand I am not burning with need to know about everything.
I used to climb mountains ( I had very mediocre ability as a mountaineer) I never yearned to do the very hardest climbs or climb the very highest peaks. There was an excellent mountaineering book called "Always a Little Further". That title was my motto as a mountaineer and my same motto as an astronomer\cosmologist. I try to progress with my astronomy one small step at a time. I personally do not properly understand the nature of black holes yet, so what lies inside them or beyond them does not bother me (at least not for now).
Of course there are plenty of people who know quite a lot about black holes (certainly a lot more than me) but I suspect even their understanding is limited.
So I cannot help by commenting on your ideas\theories which as far as I am concerned are only interesting conjectures.
Even so the Best of luck following up all your ideas from Cliff
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Post by davep »

muddak wrote:the accretion disk is everything that spins around the black holes, but doesn't this accretion disk get sucked into the black hole also?
Material in the accretion disk is falling towards the event horizon. But, as Joe said too, it's unclear what significance you're placing on this and how this fits in with your "sail" analogy. Could you expand on that?
muddak
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Post by muddak »

davep wrote:
muddak wrote:the accretion disk is everything that spins around the black holes, but doesn't this accretion disk get sucked into the black hole also?
Material in the accretion disk is falling towards the event horizon. But, as Joe said too, it's unclear what significance you're placing on this and how this fits in with your "sail" analogy. Could you expand on that?
hey davep,
sorry for beeing so unclear about this... I guess what I mean with my sail analogy, is that when we cross over to the other side of the sail, we would cross over to another dimension.. maybe this site would be better at explaining what I'm trying to say... although this is not an easy read, it is very interresting :
maybe it would be better to start with the first link to better understand the second and third...

space, time and string theory
http://superstringtheory.com/blackh/blackh4.html

extra dimensions
http://superstringtheory.com/experm/exper5.html
http://superstringtheory.com/experm/exper51.html
davep
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Post by davep »

muddak wrote:I guess what I mean with my sail analogy, is that when we cross over to the other side of the sail, we would cross over to another dimension..
But what does this "crossing over" business have to do with the accretion disk and any jets?
muddak
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Post by muddak »

davep wrote:
muddak wrote:I guess what I mean with my sail analogy, is that when we cross over to the other side of the sail, we would cross over to another dimension..
But what does this "crossing over" business have to do with the accretion disk and any jets?
davep, I have read a couple of posts and you seem to be one who likes challenging peoples ideas, I like that, this makes my brain work harder...
what I meant to say in my first post and I seem to have missed the boat in terms of fidelity to my original idea is that: my friends and I often talk about the universe and its workings. often the topic of the universe having a limit and being contained in something bigger comes up... I myself don't think there is a limit to our universe. I adhere to the concept that our universe is just a bunch of layers, these layers are transparent and so we see on the other side of those layers... my first post was more directed at finding the shape of one of those layers as the black hole would be a hole through it... the jets from the black holes would be matter being exchanged between both sides of this layer...
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Post by davep »

muddak wrote:davep, I have read a couple of posts and you seem to be one who likes challenging peoples ideas, I like that, this makes my brain work harder...
More a case of ensuring my own understanding than challenging someone else.
muddak wrote:the jets from the black holes would be matter being exchanged between both sides of this layer...
So you're suggesting that the jets don't come from the accretion disk? You're suggesting that the jets are material coming out of the black hole itself?
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Post by joe »

muddak wrote:I'm not saying that it is possible for us to cross on the other side of the black hole for we would be disassembled just like everything that goes through it...
No, neither was I. I was just pointing out that since nothing can escape from a black hole we could never find out what does happen on the other side.... if there was one. A person, or probe, passing the event horizon would experience something but he could not transmit the information outside.
this mass that created the black hole, was crushed in on itself so the mass itself would not be present anymore but the curve in spacetime would still be there...
How does the black hole/wormhole stay open or at least what would be the reason for the fabric of space to stay torn or distorted if the mass that initially caused it were to disappear?
if matter gets disassembled, if atoms get crushed or broken appart, what do they become? smaller particles that we don't know about?
Radiation?
the accretion disk is everything that spins around the black holes, but doesn't this accretion disk get sucked into the black hole also?
Matter gets drawn into the black hole if it is close enough but if it falls towards it at an oblique angle it will spiral in, picking up speed as it gets closer. It forms a disc and heats up to very high temperatures resulting in jets of radiation emanating from the poles (I will dig up some literature on this if need be). The jets do not come from inside the black hole because gravity there does not allow anything to escape. If the jets emanating from black holes are indeed a feature of hot, rotating, accretion discs, does this destroy your theory?
my first post was more directed at finding the shape of one of those layers as the black hole would be a hole through it... the jets from the black holes would be matter being exchanged between both sides of this layer...
What do you mean by shape? Are these layers seperate universes (Branes?) or are there many layers within one universe?
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muddak
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Post by muddak »

joe wrote:
muddak wrote:I'm not saying that it is possible for us to cross on the other side of the black hole for we would be disassembled just like everything that goes through it...
No, neither was I. I was just pointing out that since nothing can escape from a black hole we could never find out what does happen on the other side.... if there was one. A person, or probe, passing the event horizon would experience something but he could not transmit the information outside.
this mass that created the black hole, was crushed in on itself so the mass itself would not be present anymore but the curve in spacetime would still be there...
How does the black hole/wormhole stay open or at least what would be the reason for the fabric of space to stay torn or distorted if the mass that initially caused it were to disappear?
if matter gets disassembled, if atoms get crushed or broken appart, what do they become? smaller particles that we don't know about?
Radiation?
the accretion disk is everything that spins around the black holes, but doesn't this accretion disk get sucked into the black hole also?
Matter gets drawn into the black hole if it is close enough but if it falls towards it at an oblique angle it will spiral in, picking up speed as it gets closer. It forms a disc and heats up to very high temperatures resulting in jets of radiation emanating from the poles (I will dig up some literature on this if need be). The jets do not come from inside the black hole because gravity there does not allow anything to escape. If the jets emanating from black holes are indeed a feature of hot, rotating, accretion discs, does this destroy your theory?
my first post was more directed at finding the shape of one of those layers as the black hole would be a hole through it... the jets from the black holes would be matter being exchanged between both sides of this layer...
What do you mean by shape? Are these layers seperate universes (Branes?) or are there many layers within one universe?

Joe, concerning my theory being destroyed... not just yet.. after reading your post I did a quick search on the subject and here is an excerpt of an article found here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole
and this is what it says:
"On 21 July 2004 Stephen Hawking presented a new argument that black holes do eventually emit information about what they swallow, reversing his previous position on information loss. He proposed that quantum perturbations of the event horizon could allow information to escape from a black hole, where it can influence subsequent Hawking radiation [8]. The theory has not yet been reviewed by the scientific community, and if it is accepted it is likely to resolve the black hole information paradox. In the meantime, the announcement has attracted a lot of attention in the media."

and does my use of the word "shape" not adequately represent what something would look like if we were to see it?
those layers I'm talking about would be different dimensions in one universe, yes...

I also read that a black whole can be created from one single start or from a cluster of stars this means that what is important is the total mass of one area in space, if the accretion disk is massive enough or the mass of the area is massive enough, they would keep the black hole open until that mass has been completly absorbed and redistributed...
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Post by davep »

muddak wrote:Joe, concerning my theory being destroyed... not just yet.. after reading your post I did a quick search on the subject and here is an excerpt of an article found here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole
and this is what it says:
"On 21 July 2004 Stephen Hawking presented a new argument that black holes do eventually emit information about what they swallow,
You might also want to keep in mind this quote from Hawking himself:
http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/8/7/11/1 wrote:Hawking also dismisses his previous suggestion that the information might have leaked into a different "Baby" universe. "The information remains firmly in our universe," he told the conference. "I am sorry to disappoint science fiction fans, but if information is preserved, there is no possibility of using black holes to travel to other universes. If you jump into a black hole, your mass energy will be returned to our universe, but in a mangled form which contains the information about what you were like, but in an unrecognisable state."
muddak wrote:and does my use of the word "shape" not adequately represent what something would look like if we were to see it?
I'm not sure it does. What do you mean by "see it"?
muddak wrote:I also read that a black whole can be created from one single start or from a cluster of stars this means that what is important is the total mass of one area in space, if the accretion disk is massive enough or the mass of the area is massive enough, they would keep the black hole open until that mass has been completly absorbed and redistributed...
What do you think the significance of this is and how does it fit in with what you've said previously?
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Post by joe »

Re: Information from a black hole, the point I was getting at was that it is unlikely that we will find out from anything entering a black hole just what is going on inside or beyond, therefore that way is blocked theory wise. I'm not sure whether Hawkings admission gives us anything to build on practically but who knows? :roll:
muddak wrote:and does my use of the word "shape" not adequately represent what something would look like if we were to see it?
Well, not really, not to me anyway, but maybe I'm being a bit dim. Ok, jets of radiation emitted from a black hole (accretion disc) and they are what....curved? Straight? Is that what you mean? My point about this was that they wouldn't be long enough to see anything, just like a small length of horizon on Earth looks straight to us. In fact I'm not sure anything is long enough to actually "see" it. I believe we would have to infer it from other data, the CMBR as I mentioned before. But again, I'm not sure. If I had more time I would do some research but .... :(
if the accretion disk is massive enough or the mass of the area is massive enough, they would keep the black hole open until that mass has been completly absorbed and redistributed
Mmhh, not sure about that. If the mass of the original collapsed star(s) has "disassembled" would the accreting matter still hang about?
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