The Multiverse

The non amateur stuff. Hawking, black holes, that sort of thing

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brian livesey
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The Multiverse

Post by brian livesey »

Did anyone make sense of yesterday evening's HORIZON programme on BBC 2 about the multiverse? And was it necessary for the narrator to whisper her way through the entire programme?
Did the astrophysicists/quantum theorists have enough solid data, outside of their esoteric mathematical formulae and light experiments, to prove that their "Alice in Wonderland" universes really exist?
The idea that there are an infinite number of versions of a particular individual, living different lives in an infinite number of different universes, seems to go against nature.
Are they playing games with us to get their research grants? I know that seems cynical, but we must wonder. :? :D
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David Frydman
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Re: The Multiverse

Post by David Frydman »

I saw some of this programme yesterday.
What I get from this is the following.

In this system of multi-universes, assuming that we have an infinite number of identical clones who have identical lives and identical thoughts, then it would follow that the chances of actually meeting a single identical clone is infinitely small.
I don't know if it is also implied that our identical clones will exist over an infinite time period.

In addition, for anybody to actually understand the universe fully they would have to have an infinite IQ.

The chances of any of the experts on that programme actually being correct is also infinitely small.
That is why I avoid this kind of conjecture.
Whenever people tell me, as they do in this programme, that this is how the universe is, I just think that they are being ridiculously naive, however expert mathematicians they are.

In my opinion, and also obviously my opinion is wrong, we will never understand the universe.

Also in my opinion, what is being discussed here is as much religion as science.

There are also different types of infinity in mathematics.
There is infinity, then there is something like infinity to the power of infinity, which is something quite different.

I thought that the programme is quite entertaining and I'll probably watch it in full if it is shown again. But the chances of these experts being right is I think logically zero.

All we do when we increase our knowledge of the universe is to actually increase the number of questions. In other words we are getting further and further from the truth the more we learn, as we realise that the subject is bigger and bigger.

I have heard all of this before. The claims that if we bring back a sample from the moon we will understand the origins of the solar system and other such nonsense. It is beautiful to see the discoveries that have been made in the last 50 years, but will we ever understand it all? Of course we won't.

Regards, David
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Re: The Multiverse

Post by joe »

David Frydman wrote:Also in my opinion, what is being discussed here is as much religion as science.
Care to expand, David? I didn't see the programme but that's a bold statement. Maybe your definition of religion differs from mine.
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David Frydman
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Re: The Multiverse

Post by David Frydman »

. Yes Joe,

The mathematicians were trying to make sense of concepts, which I think are beyond any human mind either now or in the future. They were presenting their views as facts, when they cannot possibly know this.

When talking about infinities and complex infinities and presenting them as facts I think that only a concept of something beyond human understanding can be logically inferred.

It is the idea that human beings know everything and can understand everything that doesn't make sense. This to me is not logical. And of course in this context I acknowledge that my opinions must also be wrong.

I'm not at all saying that the programme has opinions about religion, just that the mathematicians were presenting as fact things that they cannot possibly know to be facts.

In this regard, I would regard this programme as dealing with concepts that one finds in religion as much as in science.

Best wishes, David
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Re: The Multiverse

Post by brian livesey »

As you seem to suggest David, the programme was an infinitely abstruse example of infinitude. :lol:
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joe
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Re: The Multiverse

Post by joe »

David Frydman wrote:. They were presenting their views as facts, when they cannot possibly know this.

Well, it surprises me that they were presenting their views this way rather than hypothesising - however wildly. I'll watch it if it's on iPlayer. Thanks for elaborating.
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brian livesey
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Re: The Multiverse

Post by brian livesey »

If the theorists are right about their "many worlds" idea, I'd like to contact the other me that has a billion alternative pounds stashed away in an alternative Swiss bank, and ask him if he'd like to swop places.
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Re: The Multiverse

Post by joe »

I watched it - but nearly didn't make it it due to the horribly mannered whispering narration.

Anyway, to me it was presented in much the same way as most other documentaries on difficult scientific concepts. I didn't form the impression that they were "preaching fact" (apart from the "suck it up" guy who was playing for laughs). They obviously feel strongly that a multiverse exists but I don't see why that's an issue if we are in the process of accepting black holes and the Big Bang, etc. There were hints that some form of evidence may be forthcoming some time in the not too distant future.
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brian livesey
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Re: The Multiverse

Post by brian livesey »

As with yourself Joe, I don't have a problem with the concept of a multiverse, after all, nature's full of interesting surprises.
The researchers should let us know the difference between actuality and their mathematical models and thought experiments. I find the hackneyed use of the word "weird" in quantum theory discussions annoying: Nature's nature.
The whispered narrative made it seem as if we were being allowed to watch something illicit.
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joe
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Re: The Multiverse

Post by joe »

The multiverse is the new universe.
I suppose mere mortals like ourselves have to take their word for it that a little cold spot in the CMB radiation is a tell tale sign of multiple universes. :shock:
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Gubbins
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Re: The Multiverse

Post by Gubbins »

joe wrote:The multiverse is the new universe.
I suppose mere mortals like ourselves have to take their word for it that a little cold spot in the CMB radiation is a tell tale sign of multiple universes. :shock:
Hi Joe

I personally would disagree that we do have to take their word. These types of documentaries pour out of America with great fanfares of music and repetitive splashes of colours and silly graphics. Unfortunately its the media (just look at many media outlets and their exaggerations) who do this and they rope in some name scientist to present conjecture as if it were true and as David has so amply described they present these as fact to the mostly uninformed public who don't know enough to see it for what it is and end up believing it. I see this first hand. The key word here is belief. Belief of unproven claims, the same basis religion is built on. They use dramatic tricks like the whispering or grand loud important voices to capture the attention of the masses. It really isn't intended to convince the skeptic or the better informed. Its there as pulp fiction like a Sci-Fi to make money on ratings or other agendas. I used to enjoy Brian Cox's presentations but he has spoiled this recently by presenting conjecture as fact. Saying this or that is the state of affairs when it is purely hypothetical is misleading at best. I no longer respect Brian for the sell out. He displayed this tendency when he did his traveling show in my city and has gone on to greater heights unfortunately.

But this is just my opinion.
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Re: The Multiverse

Post by joe »

Gubbins wrote:Hi Joe
I personally would disagree that we do have to take their word.
Hi Gubbins,
Well I was really only joking in that instance. I know that they are required to provide evidence etc.
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Trunch
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Re: The Multiverse

Post by Trunch »

I think the stories of different lives and different universe is a bit far fetched... There will likely be a multiverse that may or may not support life. A universe is a cataclysmic event in space releasimg a whole new set of matter invite wake.

https://thegoodthebadandthefuglyblog.wo ... omniverse/

It is likely that the multiverse would look similar to Russian dolls.
brian livesey
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Re: The Multiverse

Post by brian livesey »

The real wonder of the Universe is that at least one species has evolved that can comprehend it, and is able to interpolate on the origin of the universe and extrapolate on its future. Subject, of course, to the available data.
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Cliff
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Re: The Multiverse

Post by Cliff »

Dear BrianL
I've pondered over this Multiverse topic occasionally for some time.
I assume the particular species you referred to are "human beings"
I'm not quite as sure as you might seem to be, but it occurs to me you might be being a bit provocative.
I personally have my own simplistic non mathematical idea of things. I'm quite satisfied with the idea of there being just a Universe.
Best wishes from Cliff
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