Square orbits

The non amateur stuff. Hawking, black holes, that sort of thing

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Moe constantine
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Square orbits

Post by Moe constantine »

I know there is no such thing but bear with me and together we might work out just what does make the world go round! Some time ago I came up with an idea that could explain why and Joe drew an excellent diagram to make my description clear. It all seemed to work until I realised I had no idea where the enormous amounts of energy required to rotate a planet came from. Now I think I know. Many of you will have heard the explanation that the Earth actually falls round the Sun. But that is literally only half the story. As well as falling it is also climbing at the same time! Regardless of where you are, on a moving train or on the moving Earth, if you throw a ball upwards it will appear to travel straight up, ignoring any other motion. The path it does follow will be a combination of its upward motion and any other motion, but the force contained in its upward movement will remain until an equal and opposite force brings it to a standstill. In the case of throwing a ball, your arm will load the ball with say 10 units of kinetic energy and it will leave your hand with 10 units of speed. This will take the ball to a hight of 10 units where its speed and energy will have been reduced to zero by gravity. It now has potential energy and falls back to land in your hand at the same speed and kinetic energy as when it left. A diagram of this would be a vertical line with numbers starting at zero at the top and ending with 10 at the bottom. This would represent the ball climbing against the pull of gravity. At the side of this another line numbered the same would represent the ball falling with the pull of gravity. But thats not climbing and falling at the same time is it? To show this you will have a line with zero at the top and 10 at the bottom to show the ball climbing against the pull of gravity and at the other side of the line 10 at the top and zero at the bottom to show the the ball falling with gravity, both at the same time. If you add any two side by side numbers they will add up to 10. This shows the speed of the ball it its in orbit. For this to happen the two actions have to be at 90deg to each other, and thats where the square orbits come in. Hi everyone its me again, shall I carry on. Maurice

David Frydman
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Re: Square orbits

Post by David Frydman »

No.

But I have seen square pizzas.
So who knows?

D.

Moe constantine
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Re: Square orbits

Post by Moe constantine »

This post was intended to explore ideas adout what causes a planet to spin. For the record this is my version. In a circular orbit the pull of gravity is at 90 deg to the direction of travel so the orbital speed is constant. When planets first form I think their orbits will be elongated, Parabolic? In this case the pull of gravity would only be at 90 deg at the closest and most distant point from the parent star. The rest of the journey gravity would either be slowing the planet down or speeding it up, just the same as when a ball is thrown upwards. As the path of the planet is curved, the inner part would be moving slower than the outer part so will have less kinetic energy than the outer faster part. Coupled with this the inner part is in the stongest part of the pull of gravity so it will try to fall behind. At the same time the outer part with more energy and with a weaker pull of gravity will try to move ahead. The only way the two things can happen is for the planet to rotate. You may think that the reverse would happen when the planet falls back to the parent star. If it does at all reverse the rotation it will not completely cancel it out because each orbit will not go out as far as the previouse one because some of the planets energy as gone into making it rotate so is now stored in the rotating mass. All this energy is coming from gravity and the Parabolic orbit which gradualy degrades into the circular orboit we see today. All the best. Maurice Constantine.

Moe constantine
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Re: Square orbits

Post by Moe constantine »

Sorry to leapfrog your latest post Brian but I have come across quite a lot of new information which I think suports my ideas concerning why planets spin and why they are tilted on their axis.One of the main reasonse I had to find a better explanation for the spin is that I believe the Earth would probably have come to a standstill by now if the spln came from the concervation of anguler momentum of a spinning dust cloud. The spin of the Earth drives the weather, the tides and is even throwing the Moon away from the Earth. After I had written my previous post I realised that if, as I assumed, taking energy from the orbit would eventualy cause the orbit to become a perfect circle, then we would be back with the problem that the Earth would eventualy stop spinning. So I consulted the big book called the internet. I found that the Earths orbit is elogated and changes over time because of the influence of the larger planets. Also as well as precessing the plane of the orbit moves up and down. My idea for the tilt in the the Earths axis is that it never did tilt it was the plane of the orbit that changed. We had a lot of heated disscusion in the, dynamics of satelites debate, as to wether or not you could cause a giro to change its axis by hitting it. I was greatly encourage when Tim Peak proved this was not possible by going to the trouble to take a giroscope into space and knocking it about with no effect on its axis. Now I have discovered that with the information regarding the up and down movement of the Earths orbit the axis moves a few deg back and forth. No connection was made between the two and the auther obviously still thinks the axis can be changed by some unknown means, and we are not talking about precesion, thats an easy one! All the best Maurice.

mike a feist
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Re: Square orbits

Post by mike a feist »

I agree with David! When you wrote "shall I carry on?", and he replied in the negative, "no!".
Or as we might have said in the 1960s "too much, man". Regards maf

Moe constantine
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Re: Square orbits

Post by Moe constantine »

Ah the good old days. I remember when, a long time ago, you could explore complicated topics on this forum with a bunch of very inteligent amatures and at the end know a lot more about a subject than when you began. Thats what I was hoping for with square orbits but with the negative responce I decided not to , Carry on, and just put my ideas on paper so to speak in the hope that someone, perhaps an astrophsics student would do what I can,t do, prove or disprove my ideas by using maths and knowledge. After all, someone must have wanted to see actual proof that the tilt in the Earths axis could not be caused by a collision and they managed to have a gyroscope taken into space to prove it. Whoever that was if, you are reading this please take a look at the two ideas concerning the Earths rotation, swilling dust cloud or elliptical orbit. All the best Maurice.

mike a feist
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Re: Square orbits

Post by mike a feist »

Hi Maurice, in the good old days, a long time ago, (as you put it) there was no fora, no Internet and not even any home computers! One sent letters to people, and bought books. etc. Now perhaps there is just information overload! Too many words, too many theories and not enough sky watching, in my opinion. But each to their own of course. Regards maf

brian livesey
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Re: Square orbits

Post by brian livesey »

A while ago Mike, you said that attempts to concoct cosmological/astrophysical hypotheses and theories on the forum without the necessary mathematical and related qualifications, amounts to nothing more than "jolly banter". Some of us are inclined to agree with you.
brian

David Frydman
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Re: Square orbits

Post by David Frydman »

Samuel Shenton FRAS, lately of Dover, could probably give helpful advice. :?

Wikipedia has details.

Regards,
David

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